Fr. John-Mary: Father, you were describing how troubled today's world is. How can we still discover the presence of Jesus in it?

Fr. M.D. Philippe: We often imagine or dream that being Christian would have been easier had we lived in the time of Christ. But let's not forget that among the contemporaries of Christ were many faithful Jews who were unable to recognize him. It is a very great mystery that God sometimes reveals himself and sometimes hides himself. Our relationship to God is not a game of hide and seek, however, for Revelation has been given to us throughout time since and even before Jesus. Revelation was in fact given from the beginning, in a way, for human beings created in the image and likeness of God are as such witnesses of God. But we have been so wounded by sin that we are sometimes treacherous witnesses. Each one of us knows this well: in our lives certain things we do show that we are led by someone greater than us so that we can be examples for those who come after us. But at the same time we know that we are so wounded by the consequences of sin that many of our activities do not witness God, but rather deny him. In his Wisdom, God wanted us to live this mystery of faith. Faith is a gift from God: as long as we thirst to believe, God makes it grow in us. It enables us to receive the Word or Revelation of God, which always remains hidden as mystery to us.
I believe that we are now living a period of very great changes in the Church and in the world. I mentioned in the last talk that our 20'th Century is no doubt the one which has undergone the greatest changes in all the different scientific fields; this has also influenced our psychology, but as far as faith is concerned, there is no such change. The conditions within which we live have obviously changed very much. If our faith is not strong enough, these many changes can become insurmountable obstacles.

God's Providence allows the very great struggles we have already lived and those we continue to live. I don't believe that we have seen the worst of them; no, we have undergone very great ones, but we will perhaps experience even greater ones. I don't know, nobody can know for sure; but there certainly are great witnesses of Christ, witnesses of God the Father in our world. I believe that we must always return to these great witnesses who are still close to us. We may even have come across persons who have known them, and therefore their testimony will have special meaning for us. Every true testimony is from mouth to ear. When we have witnessed certain things that have impressed us, we can transmit that witness forcefully.

I can mention only a few of these witnesses. Someone should write the history of the 20'th Century from the point of view of sanctity: it would be very beautiful to see how in this troubled world there are witnesses who are close to their time as well as profoundly original, and at the same time link us to Jesus and to the whole Tradition of the Church, to what is greatest in human life.

The famous philosopher Bergson is still close to us in time: when I was a student, he was someone we could know, someone whose courses we could attend. Bergson hailed the great mystics as the most privileged witnesses of God for today's world, and perceptively described some of their distinctive qualities: they are on the one hand very close to their time, yet have deeper than ordinary knowledge of people because they go beyond external appearances; on the other hand, they transcend their contemporaries' view by telling us something eternal. This is what Malraux expressed so forcefully when he said: "When I look at today's world, I spontaneously feel that it cannot last very long, so uncertain is the future towards which it rushes." I believe that everything can be changed if there are great mystics among us. When authentic mystical experience from above seizes our hearts, it always brings hope with it. These witnesses of Christ are road signs and, more than that, are living beings as well as our greatest friends. Like John the Baptist, they always cry out in the desert. Their cry is from the desert because they have a greater message to communicate than what most people are hearing. It is not the message that we hear on radio, on television, that we see in the newspapers, but is something else entirely. It is a cry for help, a cry of love, a cry of hope. Their gestures are often very powerful, their actions incessantly repeated. They generate a following but they are still full of mercy and very close to us. I am going to mention only 3 or 4 of these witnesses whom I have known through various intermediaries.

One of them is Fr. Maximilian Kolbe. I love to mention him because he was a witness in the midst of great despair - perhaps the greatest despair of our 20'th Century - when he was in concentration camps among deported Jews, among people deprived of all human hope but who could have divine hope in the innermost depths of their hearts. All these innocent people who had been rejected and put in concentration camps knew very well that at any time they could be sent to the crematory ovens and be reduced to ashes. They would leave nothing on earth as a trace of themselves. Among those people was Maximilian Kolbe, a religious priest who happened to be near a Jew who was condemned to death by thirst and starvation. What was heaviest in the heart of this father of several children was to leave his children behind on earth as orphans, and to leave his wife. Fr. Maximilian Kolbe was consecrated to God: he had no wife on earth and no child of his own. He had adopted many children as his spiritual heirs, but they would never be lost. This is what Jesus and the saints said: "It is better for you that I go." When we reach the next world and enter fully into the Kingdom of God, we can be still more present, on a spiritual level, to those whom we have known and loved: Maximilian Kolbe's faith was deep enough to see that he wouldn't lose all those who were spiritually linked to him, but this father of a family would leave his children on earth as orphans. This is why Maximilian Kolbe offered to replace him, and the guards accepted the exchange. What a marvelous witness of fraternal charity! I was almost going to say that he is a martyr of fraternal charity: "there is no greater love than to give one's life for one's friends." Yet this father of a family was not someone whom Maximilian Kolbe had known: he wasn't a friend, a philosopher or a scientist, he was a father.

Maximilian Kolbe gives us a marvelous testimony that when fatherhood of flesh and blood is truly human, one in which a father carries his children in his heart, then we truly touch something which is divine, which can only be from God. Fr. Maximilian Kolbe, inspired by the Holy Spirit, did not hesitate to give his earthly life to save this man. We have here a witness of Jesus crucified giving his life for all men. This priest gave his life for a man in order to allow him to continue to be a true father. I am convinced that this man, saved in such an extraordinary way, well appreciated the great value of union with his wife and children. Maximilian Kolbe is a witness of Jesus for us in today's world.

In a completely different way, I would like to talk about somebody that I have known well: little Martha Robin. I am switching From Poland to France. Pardon me if I first speak of Europe, but as I have shown that atheist ideologies came from Europe, I can also show that Europe has an old Christian tradition which remains alive. It is perhaps less well known than the ideologies which have spread afar, but it remains alive. In a little French village, a girl was born in l902 and died in l98l. This country girl lived on her parent's small farm, where I knew her. At the age of 28, Jesus asked her whether she would be willing to live fully the mystery of the Cross. She wasn't in very good health. Several times she had been close to death, and little Theresa of the Child of Jesus had come to her aid. She had been marked from her youth by a very great faith and piety, a very great simplicity and concern for truth. In l930 God asked her to choose the mystery of the Cross, to become a new presence of Jesus crucified for today's world, for today's Church. Jesus one day "unfolded" her body which was folded up on itself because of her paralysis, and, like St. Francis, she received the marks of Christ crucified on her hands, her feet, her heart and her head. Afterwards, her members curled up again. She kept this treasure, folded up not only on Jesus, but completely given to him. From l930 until l98l, Martha lived, from Thursday night until Sunday and even Monday, the mystery of the Cross, the mystery of Jesus' Passion. I was often able to speak to her, and even to be present during this mystery of the Passion that she was living in deep silence, like a lamb that you lead to the slaughterhouse. She certainly suffered greatly; she was not only in pain, but also in joy and in love. When she was living the mystery of the Passion, it was striking to see how much she was present to others. That impressed all those who saw her, and they are many. She was extraordinarily present to each one, saying to each words which didn't come directly from her. Oh, they came both from and through her, for she was a very intelligent little country woman who loved realism and truth. Several times when I restated in my own way what she had told me, sometimes without exactly expressing all that she was saying, she would correct me, saying, "But Father, I didn't say that". She would then give her precise alternative. Many times I asked advise of her, and it was always given with this same realism - I was going to say "country" realism of someone who is close to the land and has at the same time a vision of Heaven which was not at all romantic. Oh not at all, there wasn't any romanticism in Martha, not a bit of imagination, but a penetration, an intelligence which probed very deeply as she brought us into the presence of Jesus and of Mary.

I never saw any ecstasy near Martha, and in fact never even asked her if she had had any or not. Her experience was greater than any ecstasy or any apparition; being near her was like direct contact with faith, hope and very great love. She lived in a little room which was always dark: since she couldn't tolerate the sunlight, the shutters were always closed. She had been blind for France since l940. You see here the realism of this little country woman, the realism of her love for her country: she had accepted blindness for France, and her eyes were so fragile that if the sunlight struck her eyes, she would fall, not into ecstasy, but into unconsciousness. From l930 until l98l, she didn't eat anything. She was living on air and on Holy Communion which was carried regularly to her. I carried it to her each time that I went there. Three times a year for eighteen years I had the grace of preaching retreats at Chateauneuf, and of seeing her for at least one hour each time, of bringing her Holy Communion and of saying the rosary with her. It was moving, very simple with the same simplicity as my talking to you. It was even simpler because I had the impression that, as far as human circumstances are concerned, there wasn't anything which could separate us. This happens when we are in the presence of a friend that we love, a friend who knows us well: there was direct contact. I realize that it was a personal grace given to me, but I can transmit it to those who didn't know her, because I was a witness of it, and through her I was a witness of the crucified Jesus, of Jesus still crucified in the world. It was impressive to see the visible marks of the crown of thorns on her forehead, to see on her hands the wounds - you could see them if you were very careful - and then the blood flowing, especially during certain retreats. You felt the influence of God, of Jesus, when you asked her questions: it was marvelous. I know that one day she turned somebody away who came to ask her if war would break out at a particular time. She did it while telling the person, "I'm not a prophetess, get out of here!" The person who received that answer told me about it herself. It was useless to go to Martha for any kind of prophecy, but it was good to ask her for help in loving Jesus more, in believing more in the presence of God. She was truly a witness in a very, very strong sense.

Mother Theresa is another witness. I saw her only one time in my life, but had a very curious impression. Martha was already dead and, when I saw Mother Theresa, I had absolutely the impression that she was like Martha in an active way, in a wholly different presence. Martha and Mary reversed, because little Martha was truly Mary in a quite extraordinary way. Mother Theresa is mercy responding to the miseries of today's world. Someone like Jean Vanier is also a witness to the meaning of suffering. It is perhaps in such suffering that God is especially present. God is present in the greatest sufferings: intellectual and spiritual miseries, temporal and physical miseries. The divine vocation related to people in misery is a very great one.

Fr. John-Mary: Father, you have been speaking about many great sufferings. You probably agree with the perception that the crisis confronting our world is most clearly seen in today's youth. You know youth well. Do you see signs of the presence of Jesus in them?

Fr. M.D. Philippe: I believe that very strong interior signs are hidden in today's youth in a kind of catacombs of today's world. Young people are looking desperately for an absolute, a guide, someone to lead them beyond all the tiresome, boring relativity in which they find themselves enmeshed. For me, this is an underground sign of the presence of the Spirit of God in the hearts of men. There are visible witnesses and invisible witnesses. It was like this when Jesus came on earth: there was a visible witness - John the Baptist -, but there were other silent witnesses - the holy innocents. There are little innocents in today's world who are also witnesses. These witnesses sometimes die without saying anything. Many of these young people aspire towards something great, however badly said or done. They are true witnesses, witnesses of the catacombs.

There is an underground presence of the love of God in today's world, in the heart of man, which cannot perhaps manifest itself in a very visible way, but does manifest itself in a very interior way - if one knows how to listen. It is not the cry of orators, of people who know how to speak well; it is the cry of those who suffer, and we must look for them. I am still thinking of the Scriptural text describing how little Ishmael was rejected because of the jealousy of Sarah about her little Isaac. Abraham sent him away with his mother, while giving him some water. When the provisions of water ran out, the child cried from thirst: the cry of the child in the desert. Scripture emphasizes that Hagar could no longer tolerate her child's cries - and we understand this very well because such cries are terribly hard for a mother to endure. Then she stepped aside and at that moment Yahweh heard the cry of the child and came near Hagar to show her where there was a hidden well. I believe that if we are attentive to God, we will discover where these hidden wells are.